QUESTION:Who is God? What is God? How can we know TRUTH? Can you give us a new parable for this answer?
ANSWER: Wo, and the Face of God The culture was maturing in "The Land of Wo." For the tribe that celebrated this great ancient warrior and holy man called "Wo" had been evolving for about 500 years. Now it had its own councils, courts and even a library. The descendents of this great founder of their entire civilization were many, but those who had the pure bloodline were revered, and they were all called "Wo." Now, for the purposes of this parable, the name Wo is neither a man or woman, but a Wo-man. So you see, it is not gender specific. But for the purposes of language, we will call Wo a "he."
Wo, the current leader and holy man, had been born into his lineage. He never knew anything but adoration from his citizens, and had lived all his life as a holy man, not a ruler or a king. Elected government ruled the land with the typical comings and goings of officials, but Wo, very much like a king, was there through it all. He had a son who was young and was in training to be the next "Chief Wo," and all seemed to be going well.
In any civilization, there is growth. Slowly, opinions change and mature, and many of the questions that could never be asked or discussed were now starting to emerge. In the past, whatever Wo's ancestry did, he did. The belief structure of the entire group was grounded in history and what the books told them had been said by former "Chief Wos" during their time as they talked to God. Book after book was available for reading and viewing, but Wo was the only one who could interpret them or even change them. It also fell to Wo to add to The Book of Life, as it was called, and provide prophecy and insight of his own, as he was the only one who could talk to God.
And so it was that all things moved along as normal until one day it became obvious that many of the more progressive thinkers wanted to know more about the God they worshipped. They were beginning to ask questions about who they were and how they could better serve the God they loved, who provided for them in a grand way. They began to present big questions to Wo, and they were about ready to ask him to do an impossible, unthinkable thing.
The great land of Wo was a vast valley surrounded by mountains. All the people lived in that valley, since to go beyond it would be instant death for anyone but "a descendant." The belief was that the valley was blessed and protected by God. The mountains were holy, and the only ones who could climb them had to be holy men of the tribe of Wo, and Wo himself had to lead them. Year after year, Wo would climb the main mountain and do the annual ceremony to keep the rains coming that fed the people, who had learned to farm very proficiently.
Indeed, the rains would come from the sky, the rivers would run down the mountains, and they would fill up the areas that the men had built for water storage. There were no lakes in this land and no seas, except the mythology that indicated that the "main water" had to be with God and was hidden somewhere. Water was holy.
When Wo went on his annual holy trip, part of his task was to climb as high as he could on the top mountain and "talk to God." He did, and every year he had overwhelming inspirations that he came down and gave to the people. He never really heard God, but he didn't tell anyone that. Instead, he gave "the messages from God" that he received through his inspiration. He knew that this was the way his ancestors had done it, too, and all was well. The messages were ones filled with instructions and protocol - not much really new, but only affirmations of what was historically known.
Then, on one of his trips he saw it. He had separated himself from the other descendants with him and gone to the very top of the mountain. The clouds had cleared, and when he looked in the opposite direction of the valley, he saw it. He fell to his knees and stared. There, as the clouds had cleared in an unusual way, was a vast ocean! More water than Wo had ever seen... as far as he could see! This is where the water came from! This was where God must live, and Wo was the only one to ever see it. This was a sign, he felt, that he had seen God. Wo told his story, and gave the information that the water somehow was lifted up from the God-Ocean, and then given to them from the sky over the mountains, flowing down to their reservoirs, allowing food and life to exist.
One day the elders and politicians were gathered in front of Wo. It was an important annual spiritual convent, a time of expression and thanks, a time of questions and answers that Wo enjoyed. But today was different. The head of the council spoke:
"Magnificent Wo," he proclaimed, "We are at that stage in our civilization where we really need to know more about God. We have history, books, insights and old teachings from your ancestors. But now we are ready for more."
Wo leaned into the conversation, fearing a bit what was coming next. They had never come to him with demands before... not even requests other than for healing or the normal things people want and need from their holy leaders.
"We want you, the only man alive who can do this, to go to the other side of the great mountains and meet God. We want the only man who is capable and authorized, to dip into the great water of God, open his eyes, and report what God really is like. We have no visualization of God. We have no image of God, and it's time we were able to draw his sacred image, put God in our visual thoughts, on our coins, and grow in our spiritual knowledge. We need to know the face of God, Master Wo!"
Wo was stunned. They want me to do what? They might as well ask me to jump into a fire! Don't they know this will kill me? I'm not God, Wo thought. I'm just a descendant. I didn't even volunteer for this; I was simply born into it. Now they want me suddenly to become something bigger than I am, and do an unthinkable thing... enter the water of God, the body of God!
"Of course I'll do that," Wo said. He couldn't believe he had so quickly agreed, but after all, Wo was the chief descendant. He was the closest to God of any Human in existence, and he knew that this was his job... die or not. He sadly agreed to go.
Wo loved his people. They treated him so well, and he was there at so many births and deaths. He knew them, their families, and their wants and needs. He actually agreed with them that it was time to know more, but secretly he hoped that this would pass to those after him. He looked upon his son and thought to himself, "Better me than you, my boy." Wo realized that this might be the end of his life, and that when he did not return, the tribes would never send another one to try, knowing the dangers. They would mourn his loss and know better next time. Wo was ready to die for his tribe and save his son from being asked later.
They sent Wo off with a team of younger descendants on the journey up the mountains. They did the required ceremonies as they went from level to level, and finally reached the place that would only let Wo go further, while the rest of them waited for him to go to the sea, then return. Wo cautioned them: "When I don't return after a week," he said, "then you know God has taken me." All of them understood only too well what Wo meant, as they all shared the fear of what he was about to do.
Wo left the group and descended down to the ocean. He prayed and stopped, prayed and stopped, anything to keep from getting to the shore too soon. Finally, he was at the base of the mountain on the seaside, facing the small waves. Odd as it may sound, no Human had ever gone into the sea in this land. He was the first. What would it be like to enter the water of the creator? What would happen to Wo when he submerged him and saw the "face of God?"
Finally, after postponing it as long as possible, Wo waded into the water. His first shock was that the water was cold! This was unexpected, since rain was often warm, and Wo knew that rain somehow came from this place. The second was that it was undrinkable! This water was too salty and almost made him sick. How could such a foreign sea bring such pure water to the village? Wo realized that there was much he didn't understand.
It was time. Wo was now deep enough to put his head and body under the water and look around. He didn't know how to swim... nobody did. There were no lakes or ponds in his land, and water was too sacred to swim in. Wo was afraid. The whole experience made him shake with fear. But he took a deep breath and submerged.
What happened next was almost immediate. Almost as soon as Wo had submerged, he opened his eyes to a very murky view. He knew that whatever he saw would be the face of God, since this was where God lived. Indeed, he got his wish. For right in front of him was a face! It was much different than anything he thought... for the face was narrow, with close-set eyes, little gills flapping on the sides, and fins for arms. Wo had seen it! God was a fish - but of course, Humans had never seen fish yet, so Wo had no idea what that was.
Wo tore out of the water, very happy to know what he had come to find out. He immediately started his climb back up to where the others waited for him, and arrived there in record time. They were shocked to see him so soon! Wo glowed with satisfaction. "I know what God looks like!" He kept saying this over and over.
When he arrived back at the village, he carefully drew what he had seen and all around him were in awe. "What a beautiful creature God is," they said. So it was then that the image of the fish became the image that was worshipped for many years. It was on their coins and on their altars, and they were pleased.... almost.
Three years later, the council again came to Wo and they said, "Wo, we request that you go again to renew your vows to God, and to face this image. We have been thinking about it all, and we think that when you came face to face with God, you didn't honor the event. You simply saw it and left quickly." Wo was waiting for this, for he knew they were right. He had not honored the face of God, and had run away too fast.
"Of course I'll go back," said Wo, but knowing that he really didn't want to repeat this journey. But he did. Off the team went to again meet the face of God. What would he say or do? He couldn't talk to the face of God because he was underwater. How might he communicate?
This time he told the team that he would be back soon, just like last time. They understood and off Wo went again on his path to the sea. He arrived there as before, and nothing had changed. He again prepared to dip into the water, after much prayer and celebration of the sea of God. Then, with great ceremony, he again entered the water.
Wo didn't see anything right away, but was ready to see the face of God once again. Then he was stunned! For in front of him was a bulbous face - much larger than the one of the God-fish, and with eight long tentacles. This was scary! What had God changed into? When did this happen? What should he do? The face looked at Wo and moved around him. Wo motioned to the face the words of the "Prayer to God," which all the Humans knew so well. He hoped this would help communicate his worship to God and save him. Then the face moved away into the murkiness. It had worked!
Wo slowly came out of the cold water, wondering what to do. "The face of God has changed," he said. What does this mean? What can I tell the village? He slowly returned up the mountain and picked up his team and returned to the village. He was pensive as he approached the council and slowly gave them his story. They were also stunned. They had expected to enhance their communication, but instead they got a message that the face of God had changed! What do they do now, redraw all the images? And what an image! Nobody said it, but this face was really ugly! They were confused.
Wo knew something was wrong with all of this. He had specialized in worship and meditation all his life. He knew the beauty of God and the love that was there. Something just didn't make sense. Wo intuitively knew he would have to return yet again, but remained quiet about it, waiting for the council to ask, and indeed they did.
After a few months, the council again came to Wo in a respectful way. "Wo," they began. "Something isn't right here. We wonder if what you saw is really the face of God, and why would it be different than the last time? God is God and wouldn't change that much in only three years!" They were right.
Wo knew that he had to come back with good answers, but he needed help. This time Wo asked a number of elders, council members and descendants to hold a large circle meditation for the time Wo would be away. The idea was that Wo would have the support of those who knew how to pray, and that would help Wo to find the truth in the water. They would begin to pray just about the time Wo would enter the water. They planned for that and prepared for it.
Yet again, Wo set out on his journey. The group of descendants who were his support team took their places as usual, and camped out waiting for him to return as he went down the other side of the mountain to again enter the ocean.
Wo felt the power and help of the others as he looked out upon the great sea. "Please God," he said, "This time I wish to know the full truth." Wo approached the sea with confidence and wisdom. This time he wouldn't just take the first thing he saw. This time he would stay and stay until the puzzle was solved. He knew he could not leave until he had answers. Who was God? What did he look like? Why did the face change?
Wo took a very deep breath and kicked off into the deep. By now he had learned a great deal more about swimming underwater and was going deeper... much deeper. Wo saw a miracle. A swarm of God's faces went by! How could this be? He passed the tentacled faces, too - a number of them. Was God a group? What was happening? Wo then realized that he wasn't holding his breath anymore... he was breathing! It was a miracle, and Wo was being given the ability to breath underwater and stay there for awhile. Then he saw it.
Wo saw the door. Why was there a door at the bottom of God's sea? Wo took a look at the door and saw the writing on it. It said, "The face of God." He smiled, for this was what he was looking for. Wo realized now that it was his approach to the sea that was creating his truth, and that his casual or fearful visits in the past had not given him the answers. He needed to show a more mature and purer intent to know the truth, and now he had found the door. He opened it.
The descendants on the mountain waited and waited for Wo. Days passed and they began to get worried. They looked at each other, but did not verbalize their fears until five days had gone by. Then without much talk, and with tears in their eyes, they knew Wo was gone. They began their trip down the mountain without their prophet, without the man they loved so much who had helped them so much with their faith.
As the group of young, depressed descendants approached the village, they heard the commotion. Coming from the village were sounds of jubilation and joy with "whoops and hollers" heard everywhere and much singing. The entire village was dancing! What was going on? Then this very tired and depressed mountain team all stopped and gasped - for there stood Wo!
When Wo had opened the door on the bottom of the sea, he received a vision. A calm but strong voice entered his head and spoke to him. "Wo," the voice said, "We love you." Wo was somehow standing in a dry place. "Wo," the voice continued, "We honor your search and will show you the real face of God." Wo wanted to answer, but could not. He was frozen in a sacred way that was not understandable; almost all his body functions had suspended. He wept with the joy of the moment.
In this vision, Wo was shown the faces of all his past Human family, then those in the village... slowly. Seemingly it took hours to do this, yet only moments had gone by. Wo got the message. The face of God was the face of his family and those around him. The face of God was his own, and those of the council. Somehow they were all included in this magic, even though he didn't understand how. Then he began to realize what was being shown. Man was made in the image of God! Therefore, the faces of men and women were also the face of the creator. What a message this was for the village!
Then, somehow, Wo had been instantly transported to the village in the middle of the circle of elders who were praying for him. When he appeared, it shocked both the elders and Wo! For a moment they just stared at each other, wondering what had happened. Then they broke out in cheers, realizing that a true miracle had happened, validating the truth of the moment. God had delivered Wo to them so that they would understand and believe. The rest is history.
Slowly, the coins of the village became the faces of each village member. Each one had their faces on one of the coins, on the altar of God, and on the places of ceremony. Wo lived a very long life and neither he or his son or anyone else was ever asked to go back to the ocean, for the ocean had somehow come to them.
-----------
It's a fun story, is it not? I tell you about simple Humans doing regular, everyday things - searching for God in their lives. It's a story about very basic ways that God is seen by humanity within all the mythology and Human stories that abound. Although the story may seem oversimplified to you, it is very much the way humanity works with Spirit.
You cross the veil with all your mythology intact, and see whatever your Humanness wishes to see. If a fish swims by, then God is a fish. If you look to the left and see an octopus, then God is an octopus. You see? You carry with you your 3D perceptions as you enter the murky waters called "the other side of the veil." With the light of interdimensional things all around you, you are swimming in the darkness of your own limitations.
For years, your holy men have gone deep into the areas of who God really is, and what may be happening on the planet, and what might happen next. But most fail to see anything but the fish or the octopus, for they are satisfied with what they expect to see, and return to Earth to give you a Human story with a Human perception. They carry back with them more mythology, which then serves to only confuse those later on down the line who must put it all together and make sense of it. Soon it is a mixture of stories, songs, partial truths, distortions and contradictions, which you call scripture in all cultures.
When the Human Being crosses into interdimensional areas with pure intent and practiced effort in meditation, then they are shown the truth. And it is this truth that puts them in a state where the miracles happen, and the family truly shows itself. There is little that is truly unavailable to humanity, and the masters of old proved it. The miracles were real, and the healings profound. But then you worshipped the men, instead of understanding their profound message: Man is created in the image of God. That image means that all of you are part of the whole, and can touch the face of God by finding divinity inside yourselves.
Is this really such an odd thing? Is it really so difficult? You wish to give away your power to statues and concepts in history that may never really have happened. How much simpler would it be to go inside and find the truth?
Moving forward in 2008 is a new beginning for those who wish to find peace on Earth. You won't find it by looking at the fish. Instead, it's time to look within.
 
KRYON

 
 
QUESTION: This concept of being able to change the past has been discussed by many channellers, but changing our past would also involve changing the past of others who have interacted with us. How does such a decision take place? In this example, a conscious decision in the present had been made to go back before the event and change a dramatic outcome.
ANSWER: Let's take the case of the Harmonic Convergence. This is not only the name for an astronomical event, but has also become synonymous for the 11:11 energy, or the time when you shifted your path. At least, that's the time you celebrate for it. So you might ask the question, "Did everyone give permission for that?"
We have told you many times that the few will make a change for the many. They have and will continue to. We told you in 2006 that less than one half of one percent of the Human race could create a global shift and cause peace on Earth. The intellectual parts of you would then ask, "Is this proper? What if the rest of humanity doesn't want what the few create?"
The answer is again something that you will have to shift perception for in order to understand. Let me ask you a question that will be for those of you who have representative forms of government. This is an analogy that is for teaching only, and doesn't hold true for all attributes, but it gives a hint at the way it works. When a law is passed in your governmental halls of government that affects your life, most of you don't run into the streets complaining, "Who gave you guys permission to do this? Nobody asked me!" The truth is that you accept the fact that you gave power to your representatives to make the changes that were best for the country, and then you went about your lives doing the things you had to do to survive day by day.
This is a small snapshot of the way humanity works. Remember this - you are not "all here" as you walk around pretending to be a Human Being. Indeed, a vast part of your divine energy is still in the Akash doing planning with the others around you. Think of it as an ongoing meeting and high council of all the Higher-Selves of all Humans on Earth, all meeting with each other all the time to create what looks to you like synchronicity. But it's not. It's planning, based on your own energy, manifestation and intent.
Therefore, there is a rule that we have never spoken about that says that all humanity depends upon the few who claim their mastery, for these are the ones who will steer the planet's future and vibratory rate. The rest may never wake up to enlightenment, or even venture into a church with any kind of intent other than curiosity or fear. If you doubt this, then explain why the very existence of only three masters on the planet control the belief systems of more than 2.5 billion of you? Intuitively, you give them permission to shape you and your future.
In the case of the Harmonic Convergence, enough of you awakened and demanded that the old energy be converted. You actually took a look at the "old novel ending" and said, "This isn't who we are anymore. We now may continue on a new path and create new potentials. We are not finished yet!" This created my very emergence on the planet, surfacing to be channeled, moving the magnetic grid to adjust your DNA.
The whole of the Higher-Self group of humanity cheered it and gave permission to move beyond the old ending, and billions of you had no idea it happened. But at the DNA level, every cell knew it and said, "It's well with me." For on the other side of the veil, you know all about you real purpose on the planet, and everything that happened on the 11:11 energy coordinated with why you are here. The few will continue to shape the future of the many, and they will do it with the permission of the many at a level that is not "3D aware."
As far as "karma" goes, do you remember our message in 1989? For if you do, you will understand that the workings of what you call karma are no longer active. Gone are the days when an energy of past lives will demand that a present one is "resolved" due to what you call karma. You are now beyond this process - an old process in an old energy of balance. The new energy of balance has the Human Being creating a "past life support group," all surrounding him with the tools he needs to create mastery within himself. The former burdens of what karma might bring to a lifetime are now voided, and the new Human is evolved spiritually due to what happened on 11:11.
Many are feeling this and feel lost. Every cell in their body is expecting something karmically, and nothing is happening. Welcome to a new Earth! Welcome to a new system that honors the Human more than any time in history. A past master told you, "The meek will inherit the Earth." This is what we now speak of, for the meek have changed your history and your future.
 
QUESTION: I know that Kryon has probably responded to this somewhere, but why is the DNA twisted the way it is? Isn't it supposed to be like a ladder or parallel? I ask because some people have seen in their visualization that their DNA was not how we have seen it usually. They see also that it is easier to heal and get information when the DNA is not twisted, but parallel. Also, from what I understand, light coordinates the cells to work in unison. When we have concentration of light, we have concentration of information. Since DNA is concentration of information, that would mean that our DNA is made of light, color and probably sound.
ANSWER: Even before you ask your question about light, let me answer about twisted DNA. DNA is twisted in 3D due to magnetics. The ladder shape is unique and is due to not only chemical reactions, but atomic structure attributes and very small magnetic charges. The smaller the objects in matter, the more they respond to field structure mechanics, and as some of the basic building blocks of all matter, DNA is definitely small enough to be influenced. The twisting is needed.
Seeing an untwisted DNA is a metaphor for solving a puzzle. When you view the casing of an automatic transmission for the first time, you have no concept of how it works. But when you open it up and start looking at the parts in a way that is more comfortable for you [like spread out on a tarp on the ground], then there are "aha" experiences, and you begin to understand the design.
So seeing DNA untwisted is really a visualization of seeing the puzzle unscrambled. This creates a clearer path for healing and basic DNA work than "seeing" it in the form that biology needs to have it in to work. The automatic transmission won't work at all when it's in pieces on the ground, but it's a wonderful teaching tool for those who wish to improve upon it and understand how it functions.
By the way, there is light in DNA... physical light. Some have even seen it [scientists], and we encourage you to look harder to expose it more. Put active DNA in a very dark place with instruments designed to be light sensitive. Over a period of time, you will find that it "glows." Now, what does that tell you? [Kryon smile]
 
QUESTION: Would our aura be the extension of concentrated light that comes from our DNA... like inner light reflecting our outer body? The aura would be the energetic counterpart of a more complex, scientific aspect of who we are.
If so, could we also say that because of our limited knowledge at this point, we cannot intervene directly on our DNA, that the aura serves this purpose, and that if we knew more about the aura we could change our DNA?
ANSWER: Your DNA directly affects the aura, period. The aura is like the color of your interdimensional energy, and that color is dependent on how your DNA changes. So you can only change your auric attributes by working with the DNA. Auric cameras don't really photograph auras. They only capture a 3D attribute that is the residual of the magnetic energy that can be seen in 3D. Only those with the gifts of seeing beyond 3D can truly view an aura. An auric camera is not an interdimensional device.
Most Humans, even the most enlightened ones, don't think they are actually working with their DNA, but they are. I have recently revealed to my partner [Lee] the inner workings of the massive part of DNA that is the non-coded portions (RNA) that science still views as "junk" or recently the "dark matter of the Human Genome." These are the parts that contain the Akashic record, the Lemurian connections you all have, and yes, even the non-Human attributes that the Pleadians gave to you. These are the interdimensional parts and are the ones that can be awakened into mastery by your own efforts.
Therefore, you might say that the difference between the most evil Human Being on record and the highest master on record is what was happening regarding these interdimensional parts of DNA. Each Human has control of his own. He can ignore the divinity and chose to sink into the lowest energy imaginable, becoming obsessed with death, torture, greed, power and worship of evil mythology. He also has the same power to discover the divinity and move into a sacred space that heretofore was reserved only for the masters who walked the earth. This is called free choice and "duality." The Human, therefore, is God and Devil, and is in control of the dark and light portions of their own soul.
This is such a foreign idea to most humans, that they instead assign such things to angels and demons, embracing light and dark mythology to explain it all away... never taking responsibility in either direction! If something bad happens, then the Devil did it. If something magnificent happens, then God did it. The truth is that the Human is at the controls of all of it.
Change your intent; work on yourself; ask for answers; create the quest for peace in your life and begin to understand and study what the masters had. If you do this, you will affect and change your DNA. It absorbs your energy of intent like "instruction sets from the boss." It is then that your aura will change.
You never "intervene" with your DNA. You simply move the veil from the 3D aspects that are keeping it from functioning at 100 percent. Think about that for awhile. When you work with your DNA, what you are really doing is subtracting Humanism!
 
QUESTION: Kryon said that the year 2008 would be the year of New Beginning, but also said that when all the masters that ever lived came back, that signifies the new beginning. Did the masters come back in preparation of the year 2008? What is their work at this time?
ANSWER: The masters came back on March 5, 2005, in something we called "The Paradise Matrix." This went unnoticed to most, but it is still one of the most precious of events you have had between you and the veil.
They returned so that ascension energy would be available to you through magnetics, for they are on the magnetic grid - the one we prepared for them that was finished at the end of 2002. Is this beginning to make some sense to you?
Receive the new tools of spirit, but the magnetics of the planet "talks" to your DNA and postures your consciousness potentials. The masters returned so that you could be masters, too... simple, but profound.
 
 
KRYON
 
Not quite the same April. The time of 'God's mystery' and associations has come to an end.

Now this has nothing to do with presumptiousness on my behalf or whatever way some or most might 'judge' such a statement; but has everything to do with what many term 'God's will' or masterplan.

God, whatever your definition of 'God' was, is or shall become; has waited a very long time to 'be discovered' or 'remembered' or dniy (do name it yourself).
Iow, the masks have and are falling in many avenues of human endeavours.

Modern science has unravelled the 'mystery' of the Descartian duality per quantum physics and has 'nailed' just how the 'very large' is entangled with the 'very small'.
Therefore the Big Bang cosmogenesis CAN be appropriately modelled (although this has not yet become mainstreamed, due to the many competing cosmological models of the 'prestige' seeking modellers.

So the 'God' as the 'old bearded man' upon a cloud and the associated 'supernaturality meme' (Dawkins) have indeed died; but the OT-god of the 'jealousy' and the one derided by the atheists and the agnostics has become replaced by the 'Father-God' of the NT.

This is so because the archetype or symbol (or mathematical formula) for the old 'Yahweh is now 'dead and buried' and 'collecting dust' as an archival memory in the paradigm of at least a few human sentiences in the universe.

Most cannot fathom, that the physical universe came to be and emerged from archetypes and symbolic metaphor; language and linguistic logic and NOT from some random fluctuation event.

For any randomness to exist, a law, say a statistical distributive law must exist to allow, initiate and bound this randomness. So the statistical law, as a metaphysical construct of the logos preceded the cosmology with the caveat, that the probability summation was Unity at the beginning to then disperse into chaos, albeit ordered and symmetric in complexity.
So now you might understand, that the 'laws of nature' derive from the same 'place' from which the stochastic laws come from.
Because a very few sentiences on this planet and many more, in fact the vast majority of intelligences, know and understand this cosmogenesis not from this planet; the new archetypology has become a teamwork implementation to reconfigure the 'old stories'.

In just few years, all 'I' have shared (with help from my friends); will be most common knowledge and April and Linda and Bill and Herb and Mike and Mac and Brooke and Cinderella will (if in this realm or another), shake their heads in disbelief in not fathoming the very simple story earlier.

But they will then also understand why this was so and necessary for an outcome of benefice to all.
JS


JS, is this not very similar to Mac's statements of the logos???

Bill


 
Absolutely Bill. I 100% support Mac on his basic precept of the
bifurcation of the 'Void' into opposing energies as a derivative from
the Logos.

Where I apruptly deviate from Mac's ideas is his 'no purpose, no
intelligence' labelling for this Logos. No purpose-no sentience - no
consciousness here equates with no way for this Logos to be enabled to
have initiated this 'split' into negative gravitational potential energy
and positive kinematic dynamic (inclusive temperature kinematics)
energies.

He imo simply does not 'think deep enough' about the implications of his
proposal. The negative energy in the universe is very well described as
potential gravitational energy BUT this is AFTER the fact of the
existence of a physical universe, then balancing the potential energies
with the kinetic energies in the well understood conservation laws.

So the bifurcation of Mac's Logos AS the material cosmos cannot be a
derivative of the metaphysical immaterial cosmos unified.

Iow, there MUST be a bifurcation or split or 'breaking of symmetry'
BEFORE the Big Bang or the emergence of the physical universe. And this
necessitates sentience of and by the Logos.

Btw, I do support the Hamilton paper and Mike has said it very well. The
universe is a Universe (which I term the Omniverse) AS GOD, allowing the
infinity-eternity-omni- concepts to finitize in individual percewptions
and 'masks'.

So the Omniverse remains in its self-evolving mode in a process of
emerging and selftransmutating consciousness.

Think of it like your many bodyparts getting better and better in
communicating via circulatory nervous- and blood/oxygen flow systems.

Your autonomous and sympathetic circulation systems then gaining in
perception potential and the many 'things that can go wrong' with
biochemical bodies evolve and become eventually 'transformed' into
matter-light hybrid bodies.

JS


--- In Panentheism@yahoogroups.com, mac <wilmac@...> wrote:
Hang on. I don't assert that the Logos has no intellect or no purpose.
What I do say is that I see the logos as the creative agency of the universe. In a panentheist sense, Logos = God, but I don't move beyond the purely existential question. It's quite possible, maybe even likely that the Logos is a mind and a purposeful one at that, but because I see no smoking gun evidence for it, I just don't as yet address that
question.
Mainly I might add because in that direction lies the pitfall of anthropomorphism, and I can't go along with that at all.
mac

Yes, pretty much what I added in my reply to Bill. Your existential
manifesto imo 'falls' in your prejudice or definition of what this
anthropomorphism represents.

And on the deepest 'intuitive' level you are 'right'. Because the saying
of 'in God's image' superficially is (and was for so 4000 years now)
interpreted as the 'old man creating Adam' in the sistine chapel, your
anthropomorphism becomes fundamentally supernatural - and must be
rejected by the scientifically informed philosopher.

Imo you are throwing the 'baby out with the bathwater' in your
intellectual translation of your intuition.

Look into a mirror. What do you see? You see your image. A little
thought experiment now can convince you that your image, although
optically projected under well studied laws of physics, neveretheless
DIFFERS from you in a most fundamental essence.

This fundamental essence relates to the weak parity violation, the
lefthandedness of amino acids in biological organisms coupled to
righthanded sugars and the chirality of the neutrino families.

Ok, as you raise your right hand in your 4D-spacetime reality; your
image raises his left hand.

So should you thought experiment and enter the mirror to BE your own
image; you will become a different Mac - a lefthanded one.

Pondering this a little deeper, you might then arrive at a different
anthropomorphism; namely that the 'Old Man in the sistine chapel' is You
as a lefthanded Mac creating the righthanded Mac across a dimensional
'void' or abyss of firmament or Kaluza-Klein Riemannian hypersphere or
Poincare's 3-sphere of some sorts.

JS




--- >In Panentheism@yahoogroups.com, "billk9989" <rcgolfer@...> wrote:
--->>In Panentheism@yahoogroups.com, "HumanCarol" <humanist@> wrote:
"billk9989" <rcgolfer@> wrote:

April believes that the list goes in circles, and she is tired of the lack of progress in areas she would like to see make progress.>>
 
>>Progress?
Progress toward what?
Is there a goal? What would that be?

> I will let April answer the question in her own way, if you are directing it to her. I will answer it in my way, if you are directing it to me:
Here are a few of the many things I would like to know more about:

1.  Progress in understanding the implications of Mac's logos would be good.
2.  Progress in understanding strong emergence concepts would be good.
3.  Progress in understanding Brooke's notion of love being any action that improves the life of another would be good.
4.  Progress in understanding the metaphysical implications of a probability of one in 10^120 that the 6/7 constants are just right would be good. Progress in understanding if 10^120 is a serious, best estimate would be good.
 
I think there are people here who could help me make progress in understanding all of these things, and I think all of these things have strong panentheistic implications. I have many more I could add to this list. Probably everybody here has their own list.
 
If we are functional in the way we interact, we can make a lot of progress in understanding. If we are dysfunctional in the way we interact, we make little 'progress'.

Bill.....K


Yes, me too. And I'd love to talk about panentheistic concepts according to various well known panentheist authors, such as Whitehead, Cobb, and Paul Davies.

-April

1. Mac's Logos, in principle, is the appropriate way to 'discover' the panentheistic God. I say in principle, because the rational logic Mac invokes is the 'proper tool'; whilst his 'theological philosophy'  about this 'logos as God' is not (in the view of the panentheistic thinkers, such as mentioned by April.

Briefly, the Immanent God of panentheism must be definition and nature be FINITE; should this immanence also allow and accomodate a transcendence into the concept of the INFINITE.

So the atheistic viewpoint of the nonexistence of the transcendent 'God' is absolutely correct; should the pantheistic God of the FINITE universe (here I dismiss the infinite regression of any kind of physical parameter and the popular idea of parallel universes {there are phasechanged multiverses}) be identified with the physically observed and measured universe.

The true panentheist however knows, that the immanent God is also a transcendent God and so counters the atheistic argument from the perspective of God's Duality.

How can God be dual? It is both transcendent in a (hard to visualise) realm, where the FINITE parameters do not exist and It is immanent (also hard to visualise) in the cosmic realm of the parameters of space, time, matter, temperature and so on.

The immanent God so becomes subject to scientific exploration; whilst the transcendent God does not, as the measurement parameters only apply to the immanence.

The immanent God is also hard to conceptualise, because it must, by definition of the omniness, encompass both the smallest measurements and the largest measuremenmts in yet another duality of sorts.

The true panentheist (not just by label, but by thought) then understands that the omniness of the duality God becomes a Selfdual Monadic Unity in the synthesis of the immanence and the transcendence.

Then no matter how m,any dualities are discovered in the immanence; the overarching duality will be the transcendece-immanence; which itself becomes the selfdual unity.

2. The strong emergence is selfduality expressed in the FINITUM; that is say a scientific discovery of how the Big Bang occurred as the manifesto of 'God's physical Body' (a la pantheism) from 'God's Mind' in the INFINITUM. Or the scientific understanding how life arose in the universe as a function of say a 'consciousness distribution' again triggered in the transcendence, but manifesting in the immanence.

A weak emergence would be akin the reverse, and where some scientific discovery points towards transcendent causation.

3. The concept of (Brooke's) Love is also a dual manifesto from the two realms.

The 'old religions' of earth (all of whom have become superceded by the parousia), all associated the 'love' concept with the nature of God.

Then, in view of the above (which is only introductory), LOVE must be the selfexpression of the transcendent God in terms of 'God's Energy'.

This of course requires rigorous definition in the immanent realm to then DEFINE the immanent God (not the transcendent God, who cannot become defined in FINITE parameters).

Now, because of the omniness; the expression of LOVE (as the Love of God in energy, not some other subnomenclature) by all and sundry and in whatever form and subject to the definition given to it in the immanence; will be universal and cosmic in extent.

The nature of God as LOVE then will 'spread the Love of God' throughout 'God's own Body' and be of benefit to all and sundry components of that Body. This can result in a supercosmic symbiosis between all the 'parts' of God's own Body of the Immanence (as his wife, the universe of physicality).

4. There is too much emphasis on 6 or 7 or 12 constants. There are a number of other classifications, which allow a similar classification.

 The 10¹²⁰ number is basically the DIFFERENCE between the ENERGY of the Immanent energy of the physicality and the Reservoir from which this energy derives as the BOUNDARY between the Transcendence (where such numbers are meaninless) and the Immanence.

The duality of the selfdual God becomes manifest within the FINITUM in the energy ratio between the ZPE and the actual energy of the universes' content (say stars and galaxies, people and bacteria).

The Planck-Density is Planck-Mass/Planck-Volume~2x10⁹⁶ and the actual (critical) mass-density of the universe is measured at about 10^-27 kg/cubicmeter.

The ratio between those two numbers then defines a 'discrepacy' in the order of 10^123.

The manner the 'God of Oneness' became selfdual is the 'holy grail' of the cosmologist and the quantum physicist. Many exponents of course do not call it as 'A Search for God', but that is precisely what it is, when the pundits 'probe' the Big Bang Cosmogenesis.

This particular 'mannerism' (which is algorithmic)  of God then will crystallize just how the 'fundamental constants' became the BOUNDARY CONDITION between the transcendent God and the Immanent God.

The grat furphy of the 'anthropic principles', both weak and stronmg, willl then be readily seen to be utterly superfluous and supernatural.

The selfdual God is completely NATURAL.

John Shadow